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Wer leitet eine Gemeinde?
#71
Zitat:Hallo FMK,

deine letzten Beiträge haben mich sehr ermutigt. ....

Richard, danke.

Schön. Dann bin ich beruhigt. Wirklich! Nicht wenige würden meine Fragen als unverschämt oder bedrohlich empfinden. Ich hatte schon auch die Sorge darum. Ihr ermutigt mich darum auch sehr. Es ist gut, wenn man das sagen und denken darf und man dafür nicht verurteilt wird, auch wenn die Gedanken vielleicht sehr unkonventionell sind. Aber Ihr habt ja auch eine sehr unkonventionelle Art und Weise - was ich sehr gut finde.

Zitat:Wir müssen daran arbeiten

Gerne - jederzeit.
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#72
Hallo FMK,

gerade komme ich von einem sehr guten Abend, wir hatten einen Gast, mit seiner Frau, ein Apostel, der übers Wochenende in unserem Netzwerk dient.
Es war richtig gut, was er uns mitgegegeben - hat ungefähr 20 Leute aus mehreren Hausgemeinden waren versammelt und er hat genau die wunden Punkte in unserer Gemeinschaft berührt und hat uns liebevolle Korrektur und Ausrichtung gegeben. Es tat richtig gut und ich habe das Gefühl, dass wir auf dem Wege sind wieder mehr in die Riefe des Christus hineinzuwachsen. Obwohl es keine großen Lehren waren, die er weitergegeben hat, kam Festigkeit und Stärke bei uns an, die wir brauchen. Dafür brauchen wir solche Leute. Morgen werden wir im kleinen Kreis eine "Mentoringzeit" minteinander haben. Ich glaube, an solchen Dingen hat Gott Wohlgefallen.
Hier ein interessanter Artikel, den ich gefunden habe: http://www.housechurch.co.za/

Gruß Richard


Anm. v. Guido: Hier der volle Link zum Artikel, ansonsten findet man den in ein paar Wochen nicht mehr (weil der Artikel in einem Blog immer weiter nach hinten verschoben wird):
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#73
Hallo Richard,

ich gönne es Euch von Herzen. Ich kann mir vorstellen, was für eine Ermutigung das sein kann.

Danke auch für den Artikel. Ja - ich stimme vollkommen zu, es ist eine zutreffende Sicht auf Apostel, dass sie gesandte Diener sind die einfach das tun, wozu Gott sie gesadt hat und eine zutreffende Sicht für falsche Apostel, dass sie eine Hierarchie hochziehen wollen um sich selbst über die anderen zu setzen, die beeindruckt sind von ihren außergewöhnlich erscheinenden Offenbarungen und Wundern.

Das hat mich stark an eine Hausarbeit erinnert, dich ich mal zwecks Abschluss einer Bibelschulklasse über 2. Korinther schreiben mußte, wo der Unterschied zwischen Paulus und den falschen Superaposteln beschrieben wird, die seinen Dienst in Korinth bedrohen. Ich poste es einfach mal - es klingt zwar an manchen stellen etwas akademisch - ist aber darauf zurückzuführen, dass es im akademischen Kontext enstanden ist. Mir kommt es jetzt mehr auf den Inhalt an, also bitte darüber gnädig hinwegsehen. Rolleyes
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#74
My Grace is Sufficient

An Exegetical Paper on II Corinthians 12:7-13

Course Corinthians

Lecturer: M. L. Kromer, PhD

European Nazarene Bible College

Büsingen / Germany

Frank Kraft


1 Setting

The relationship of Paul with the Corinthian Church is at a point, where Paul considers it necessary to defend his apostleship in the most passionate and personal way, that we can find in the Pauline literature. Some who called themselves Apostles of Christ have come into the Church in Corinth [II Cor 11:13]. Paul considered them a great threatening of the work, that God had done through him in Corinth [11:3.13-15]. They denied the legitime apostleship of Paul [10:2.7], and preached so different from what Paul had preached, that Paul called this another Gospel [11:4].

The Epistle does not say much about the content of the other Gospel, that the intrudors preached, but some of their characteristic marks can be stated. First, they must have been Hebrews [11:22]. Second these intrudors seemed to lay weight on the outer apperance as signs of the apostleship [5:11 ] [10:7] [11:18], as can be seen by letters of recommendation, they took with them from somwhere else [3:1] [10:12.18]. Third, their behaviour was somewhat lording over the congregation, even demanding some kind of support from the congregation [11:20], wich in turn they even interpreted as an indispensable sign of an apostle[11:7]. They obviously laid some weight on revelations [12:1] and signs and wonders [11:12] as the legitimation of an apostle (see also [Bar73: p 312]).

Severeal attemps have been made to identify these intrudors further. [Bar73] gives some reasoning on this on pages 28ff as well as on their theology on pages 40ff. It has been said they were Palestinian Jewish Cristians, representatives of a gnostic movement of oriental origin or Hellenistic Jews, of wich the latter is considered the most probable. Some considerations can be found in [Bru92] on pages 172ff as well.

Whoever these competetive missionaries were, in chapter 10 through 12 Paul defends vehemently not so much his status as an apostle [12:19], but that, for what he and his apostleship stands and the Christ, that he represents. First in chapter 10 he defends the effectiveness of his ministry, though he himself is not a person of appearence and speech, points out the spiritual strength in outer weakness. In chapter 11 he criticizes the false apostles by pointing out their reliance on mere outer criteria, but starts to go down on their level by showing, that, judged after these foolish criteria, he won?t stand behind at all. He continues in that at the beginning of chapter 12 by talking about extraordinary revelations, that were given to noone other than him, while he was raptured into the 3rd heaven.

2 Exegesis

The Text can be divided up in two major parts:

I. Pauls Personal Discliplinary Infliction (V 7-10)

II. Validity of Pauls Ministry in Corinth (V 11-13)

Part I. actually belongs to the passage about the extraordinary revelations in [12:1-6], following up on the other side of such a mercy granted to him. On the other hand it will be worked out, that it contains the core of the answer on the spiritual level for the whole situation. Part II. binds the foolish string of argumentation together with the spiritual and proofs to the Corinthians, that the ministry of Paul in Corinth is in no way inferior to the ministry of the intrudors, but even contains the quality, that distictively marks the ministry of Christ, and that the ministry of the false apostles misses.

2.1 Pauls Personal Disciplinary Infliction

In this section Paul explains his personal infliction, that he received from the Lord, and how it relates to his life, ministry, and relationship with the Lord.

Zitat:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

a) uperairwmai expresses a condition of standing over the things, and a resultant haughtyness [TDNT], like the stems of the words imply ?to be exalted high in the air?, a condition where humbleness and the touch to real life problems has been lost. This condition, a temptation following the abundant (uperbolh) revelations, would be prohibited by the infliction. The passage implies that the Lord counts the humble moral integrity of his servant higher than his well-being.

B) skoloq th sarki - The thorn can also be translated as pike, even an instrument for torture or execution [Bar73:p 315]. It is not to be considered as a light infliction. It is an expression of immense pain. The flesh can basically have two meanings: 1) the Body, 2) the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God. Dependent from the meaning of this word, the infliction would be: 1) a physical injury, 2) a temptation. Many suggestions have been made about the thorn in the flesh [TDNT]. [Plu70:pp 350ff] explains, that persecution or individuals, who withstood Paul where held to be the thorn. But, it is argued, this is not a unique Pauline experience, and he would?nt have prayed to be freed from that. Furthermore moral or other temptations where held to be the thorn, but first it seems illogical to replace one temptation with another temptation, second Paul would not have ceased to pray to be freed from temptation, and other difficulties can be found to show this a most probably false suggestion. The best way to explain the thorn is a painful physical or possibly mental (so suggested in [Lit31:p157]) injury that was assigned to poor Paul. Even many speculations about the nature of the injury have been made. Because of [Gal 4:15] and of [Gal 6:1], where Paul uses large letters, when he writes with his own hand, an ophtomalia has been suggested, but it could only mean, that the Galatians were willing to give the most valuable for Paul, and it can be doubted, if an ophtomalia can produce so much pain [Lit31]. Incidents of epilepsy have been discussed, because it can be easily imagined, that an angel of Satan beats Paul to the ground that way, and it would probably produce the disgust and shock in the congregation mentioned in [Gal 4:14], but this can as well not be said with final surety. More suggestions can be found in [Bru92:p 248]. Whatever it was, is was most probably a physical problem of intense pain, which severely irritated Paul, though probably only occasionally.

c) dio - the pain was explicitly given by God, bestowed upon Paul.

c) aggeloV satana ina me kolafizh - the angel of Satan beats me with the fist - a clue for the possibility that it was not a constant pain, but an occasional. The passage has two possible interpretations: 1) the injury itself is to be considered the messenger from Satan that is somehow personified in this passage, 2) the injury is caused by a demon, that is allowed to hurt Paul. Whatever, the result for Paul is the same.

Zitat: 8  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

a) parekalesa - to beg, entreat, beseech; [TDNT]

It is not difficult to imagine Paul in earnest prayer concerning this matter.

B) The number three was doubted to be taken literally, and to be a sign of repeated prayer [Bar73:p 316], but there are better ways to express permanent repeated prayer.

c) aposth - relates to the angel [Plu70:p 353] and since it is perfect, means ?leave once and forever? [Bar73:p 316]

d) The prayer of Paul is completely understandable, not to be condemmed at all. It is a sign of an intimate relationship with God, when Paul brings all his sorrows in prayer to God.

Zitat: 9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

a) My grace is sufficient for thee - you need nothing more than my grace, my grace is enough for you, you shouldn?t even demand more [Lit31:p 155]

B) teleitai - to make perfect, complete; to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end, bring to a close or fulfilment.[TDNT] ?? a scene of human weakness is the best possible stage for the display of divine power. So far from coming to perfection, divine power is scarcely perceptable in the impressive activities of the ecclesiastical potentates with whom Paul has to contend. It is when he is weak, really weak - poor, sick, humiliated, despised, unloved by his own spiritual children as well as scorned by the world - that God?s power comes into view.? [Bar73:p 316] That is, because God wants his power only to come through this way, a truth, that the Superapostles have never known.

c) kauchsomai - whatever the Superapostles boast in foolishly, I boast in my infirmities, because I know, that because of them ?

d) asyeneiaiV - infirmity, weakness, disease, sickness, want of strength, 1) of the body; its native weakness and frailty, feebleness of health or sickness 2) of the soul; want of strength and capacity requisite, to understand a thing, to do things great and glorious, to restrain corrupt desires, to bear trials and troubles.

The consciousness of the frailty and feebleness in the body produces an openness of the soul, a readyness to receive help and blessings, a prerequisite to be used by God.

e) episkhnwsh - to fix a tent or habitation on, to take possession of and live in the houses; [TDNT]

A constant accompaniment of the power of Christ.

Zitat: 10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

a) eudokw - it seems good to one, is one's good pleasure; think it good, choose, determine, decide; to do willingly; to be ready to, to prefer, choose rather; [TDNT]

It seems obvious, that Paul had to decide conciously to rejoice in his infliction. His decision to submit willingly under the will of God, even if it is this kind of will, this marks him as the true apostle of Jesus Christ, of whom Paul said [Plp 2:5-8]. That obedience distinguishes him from the others who only pretend.

B) ubresin - hurt, harm, reproach, insolence; impudence, an injury, affront, insult; [TDNT]

A hurt in relationships between humans in contrast to a physical hurt.

c) anagkaiV - necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, custom, argument; [TDNT]

Something life brings with to everyone, but many complain about.

d) stenocwriaiV - narrowness of place, a narrow place; metaph. dire calamity, extreme affliction; [TDNT]

Situations that seem to have no way out.

Paul puts the last statement of this passage on a broader basis than on his personal infliction, that he described before. Rather it makes the impression, as if the thorn was only one, even if the most distressing, infliction, that Paul has to bear. Paul does not only want to describe his personal fate, but has a broader truth to bear. He seems to say: If you once have the right attitude, a whole new world of experience of the coexistence of human weakness and divine power opens up to you.

2.2 Validity of Pauls Ministry in Corinth

Now Paul resumes his earlier argument. He made his point about the true attitude of a messenger of Christ, and now thinks back on his earlier foolish boasting, and binds these two strings together.

Zitat:11  I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

a) The Commentaries are somewhat unanimous in the meaning of the first part of this verse. Because the Corinthians didn?t take up Pauls cause, when the false Apostles arrived, but endured them, Paul was the one, who had no other choice than to defend himself, even if he knew it was foolish, and actually didn?t want to do it.

B) Problems arise as some questioned who the chiefest apostles where - the false apostles that came to Corinth or probably the pillars in Jerusalem, of whom the letters of recommendation could have been. It is argued, that Paul doesn?t really attack these chiefest apostles here, he only sais he is not behind them, which can also be understood quite strange, if they were actually servants of Satan. See [Bar73: 31] for that discussion. Either way, he is actually not behind any of them. And as he is trying to make a point about the intrudors in the whole section of the Epistle from chapter 10 on, it is safe to maintain the assumption, that he talks about the intrudors.

c) Though I be nothing: [Bar73:p 320] states, that it may be a recitation of what the others say about him. The other commentaries do basically agree. [Bar73] goes on: ?Paul was human enough for the word to rankle, though there was a sense in which he could gladly claim it to be true; he was well pleased to be nothing that Christ might appear to be more, and his people advantaged.? What others meant to be his shame, his lack of outer apperance and human strength, was rather the real strength of Paul, because he did not quench the power of Christ with his own ability. Here the both concepts of apostleship clash togehter irreconciliable. Paul boasts gladly of that, of what the others despise him. Blessed Paul. He would rather choose to be a nobody, so that Christ Jesus might be glorified. And it can be assumed, that he consiously sets his concept of apostleship against the false one to show its hollowness and void. This were a masterpiece of argumentation. He argues on both levels, and binds them together into one, that one can only stand in awe. And he proofs not only, that Gods grace is totally sufficient for him, but even over-sufficient in that sense, that it contains everything that he needs for his apostolic ministry, and that he actually needs nothing else than Gods grace in Jesus Christ.

Zitat:  12  Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

a) Signs and wonders were considered as the true confirmation of a god-given mission. Paul does even not deny this, he rather reminds them, that in these things his ministry was as well confirmed by God, as the other apostles claimed it to be for them.

B) upomonh - patience, steadfastness, constancy, endurance: in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings: patiently, and steadfastly; [TDNT]

The difference between the miracles of the Superapostles and of Paul. Paul beared fruit in meekness and weakness, with patient endurance after the image of the suffering Jesus, while the others can be recognized by having miracles alone.

Zitat: 13  For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except [it be] that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

The same theme repeated again. What was actually Pauls boast, namely that he laid no burden upon the Corinthians, that for he was despised again. The burden clearly means the demand of financial support.

That was the only difference between the other churches and the Corinhtians. Would anybody want to make an accusation out of it, Paul would ironically answer: forgive me this wrong.

3 Conclusions

The complexity in Pauls mind in these little pieces of his Epistle is hard to comprehend, even with the thoroughest investigation. The background for the argumentation is a defense against a false apostleship, of a kind that rather knows external glory than internal dunamiV. The thorn plays the primary role to keep the apostle from the dangers of the extraordinary revelations, in which he was not inferior to any Superapostle. On the other hand brought the thorn to day, what was the true nature of Pauls apostleship, the upomonh, yes even the eudokw of the inflictions, that were imposed on him by divine purpose, demonstrating the true nature of the false apostleship, namely the refusal of the communion with the sufferings of Christ, and therefore only a hollow glory. Here the whole subtlety of the seduction by the Superapostles comes to the light. The same on the outside, the invers at the inside. Paul had good reason to fear for the Corinthians, and was good off in passionately defending his apostleship as the representation of the spirit of Christ. And the masterpiece of God can be seen in this episode, who knows all things, and comes to his purpose, even with a Paul who is permittet 3 times to pray for something he doesn?t fully understand.

A Bibliograpy

[Bar73] C.K. Barrett, A Commentary on the Second Epistle to the Corinthians, Adam & Charles Black, London, 1973

[Bru92] F.F. Bruce, (Editors: R.E. Clements, M. Black), The New Century Bible Commentary, I & II Corinthians, Eerdmans Publ., Grand Rapids, USA, 1971, 1980, 1990, 1992

[Lit31] D.H. Lietzmann, An die Korinther I?II, Handbuch zum neuen Testament, C.B. Mohr Verlag, Tübingen, 1931

[Plu70] A. Plummer, (Editors: S.R. Driver, A. Plummer, C.A. Briggs), The International Critical Commentary, II Corinthians, T & T Clark, Edinburgh, 1915, 1970

[TDNT] R. Kittel, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
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#75
Genau. Und deswegen fasse ich für mich persönlich zusammen: Nach 35 Jahren in der Gemeinde bin ich es leid von Leuten geleitet zu werden, die ihre geistliche Oberflächlichkeit durch Äußerlichkeiten zu kompensieren versuchen und manipluative Mittel anwenden, um die Kontrolle nicht zu verlieren. Das war jetzt ziemlich hart formuliert und das trifft nicht jeden, dem ich mich untergeordnet hatte.
Aber es hat zur Folge - und das ist ja auch das Thema dieses Threads - dass die Gemeindeleitung nicht aus Ältesten besteht, die nach biblischen Kriterien von Aposteln eingesetzt wurden. Was wieder zur Folge hat, dass unreife Personen das Amt der Gemeindeleitung ausüben und so weiter und so fort. Das trifft auch nicht jeden - wohlgemerkt ich mache hier keine Allaussagen! Und man nicht weiß an wen man sich wenden soll, wenn man Stress mit solchen Leuten hat. Weil dejenige, an den man sich wenden könnte sich ja auch der Denomination verpflichtet weiß und dem Ziel, die Arbeit der Denomination auszubreiten statt sich Christus allein verpflichtet zu wissen. Was das Vertrauen schon wieder ziemlich schmälert.
Daher bin ich der Auffassung, dass es aus ganz praktischen und auch aus biblischen Gründen der Fall sein muss, dass von dem Apostel, der sich für die väterliche Betreuung der betreffenden Gemeinde vor Jesus verantwortlich weiß nach biblischen Maßstäben eingesetzte Älteste diejenigen sein müssen, die die Gemeinde leiten.
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#76
Hallo Frank
Deine Antwort auf meinen letzten Beitrag hat mich ermutigt.
Zitat:Darum vertraue ich auch fest darauf, dass der Herr das, was an Gemeinschaft und was an dem Bedürfnis nach einer heiligen Gemeinde mangelt erfüllen wird. Ich vertraue fest darauf, dass ich das sehen werde, was verheißen ist.
So sei es! Amen!
Gruß Jürgen
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#77
Hallo Frank,

ich hab es geschafft, den Artikel zu lesen. Alles hab ich nicht aufnehmen können, aber ich denke das wesentliche. Du sagst ja selbst:
Zitat:The complexity in Pauls mind in these little pieces of his Epistle is hard to comprehend, even with the thoroughest investigation
Das wesentliche im Unterschied des Paulus als Apostel zu den falchen A. oder den "Superapostel" sind eben nicht die großen Taten und das imposante Auftreten, sondern die Schwachheit, in der die Kraft Gottes allein die Ehre bekommt und nicht der Mensch, der Apostel.
Zitat:The difference between the miracles of the Superapostles and of Paul. Paul beared fruit in meekness and weakness, with patient endurance after the image of the suffering Jesus, while the others can be recognized by having miracles alone.... and was good off in passionately defending his apostleship as the representation of the spirit of Christ.
Es ist der Charakter des Apostels, der das Wesentliche in sich trägt, nämlich die Wesensgleichheit mit Christus. Das ist übrigens auch das Kernthema des Buches von Arthur Katz "Auf der Grundlage der Apostel", das Hejo dir empfohlen hat - ich hab es auch gelesen und empfehle es.
Damit sind wir eigentlich auch wieder bei (m)einem Kernthema:"Jüngerschaft". Das ist eines der wichtigsten Apostlischen Dinge, diesen Charakter Jesu zu leben und ihn an Treue weiterzugeben.

Gruß Richard
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#78
Zitat:Es ist der Charakter des Apostels, der das Wesentliche in sich trägt, nämlich die Wesensgleichheit mit Christus.
Wesensgleichheit mit Christus?
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#79
Zitat:Damit sind wir eigentlich auch wieder bei (m)einem Kernthema:\"Jüngerschaft\". Das ist eines der wichtigsten Apostlischen Dinge, diesen Charakter Jesu zu leben und ihn an Treue weiterzugeben.

Ja, Richard. Wenn ich auf mein bisheriges Leben zurückblicke und auswerte, was bleibende Frucht gebracht hat und was nicht, ist das Ergebnis eindeutig. Andere Menschen anleiten, das hat bleibende Frucht gebracht. Alles andere kommt nicht annähernd an die Fruchtbarkeit von Jüngerschaft heran.

Darum ist es auch konsequent, mich darauf im verbleibenden Rest meines Lebens zu konzentrieren. Was Jesus ja sowieso geboten hat, wenn man es sich nur einmal klar macht.

"Geht hin und macht alle Menschen zu Gottesdienstbesuchern" war NICHT sein Auftrag Huh .

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#80
Ja genau Frank - stattdessen, "machet zu Jünger"

Jürgen du fragst erstaunt "Wesensgleichheit mit Christus" - ja genau. Damit meine ich die Gesinnung, die innere Haltung des Jüngers - entsprechend den Worten aus Phil.2,5-8:
(bitte nachlesen)
Dieses "Wesen", diese Gesinnung und innere Haltung ist für mich das wichtigste (Kenn-)Zeichen eines Apostels. Natürlich ist es auch gut, wenn sie Wunder und Zeichen tun, aber ohne die Gesinnung Jesu ist es nichts Wert.
Und in diesem Sinne ist ein wahrer Apostel ein Vater, der dies vorlebt und sein so geartetes Leben in seine Jünger (Kinder) investiert.
Ich glaube, dass wir solche Leute in Deutschland brauchen. Wir brauchen keine Stars oder Superapostel, die allein mit Wunder und Zeichen die Menge anlocken, und auch keine Superlehrer, die alles genau wissen und dich überall belehren können, in zig Seminaren, Schulen und Konferenzen, sondern wir brauchen Väter und Mütter, die Kinder des Glaubens zeugen und sie zu Jünger und zur Reife heranführen. Und ich meine es ist wichtig, wenn wir diesen Bedarf, diese Not und dieses Verlangen danach äußern, uns darüber unterhalten und uns fragen, wie können wir praktisch werden, nicht nur im Internet darüber reden und unsere Meinungen austauschen. Ich denke es muß und soll in der Praxis sichtbar werden und wir sind gefragt, ob wir uns daran beteiligen wollen.

Gruß Richard
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